1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,566 2 00:00:01,566 --> 00:00:02,940 Kareem Watson: So hello everyone. 3 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:06,960 Thanks for joining us today on this Valentine's Day. 4 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,730 We'll be having a webinar on supporting gender 5 00:00:10,730 --> 00:00:13,260 non-conforming children and their families. 6 00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:15,800 We have a bunch of presenters with us, 7 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,860 but I'll start off with our host, Gail Forsyth-Vail. 8 00:00:18,860 --> 00:00:23,130 She's the UUA Adult Programs Director here at the UUA. 9 00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:24,150 I am Kareem Watson. 10 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:26,770 I'll be your tech support for today, 11 00:00:26,770 --> 00:00:31,280 and I'm also the UUA FDOF office administrator. 12 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,700 For our presenters we have Melissa James, 13 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:37,885 she's director of Family and Lifestyle Ministry, first UU 14 00:00:37,885 --> 00:00:40,360 Church in San Diego, California. 15 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,290 You also have Alex Kapitan, who's 16 00:00:42,290 --> 00:00:45,620 a co-founder of Transforming Hearts Collective. 17 00:00:45,620 --> 00:00:47,480 We have Lisa Ruben, who's the Director 18 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,610 of Religious Education of First Parish in Bedford, 19 00:00:50,610 --> 00:00:51,680 Massachusetts. 20 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,780 And we have Melanie Davis, our own UU OWL Program Associate. 21 00:00:56,780 --> 00:01:00,620 So, to start us off we'll have opening introductions, 22 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:03,914 and I'll pass it on so you, Gail. 23 00:01:03,914 --> 00:01:04,830 Gail Forsyth-vail: OK. 24 00:01:04,830 --> 00:01:10,830 I'm actually going to pass the poem on to Melanie. 25 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:13,980 Melanie Davis: This is "Poem" by Mary Oliver. 26 00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:19,590 "The spirit likes to dress up like this, 10 fingers, 10 toes, 27 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:23,850 shoulders, and all the rest at night in the black branches, 28 00:01:23,850 --> 00:01:27,120 in the morning in the blue branches of the world. 29 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,490 It could float, of course, but would rather 30 00:01:29,490 --> 00:01:31,760 plumb rough matter. 31 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,120 Airy and shapeless thing, it needs the metaphor of the body, 32 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,150 line an appetite, the oceanic fluids, 33 00:01:39,150 --> 00:01:41,520 it needs the body's world. 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,480 Instinct and imagination and the dark hug of time, sweetness 35 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,450 and tangibility to be understood, 36 00:01:48,450 --> 00:01:52,200 to be more than pure light that burns where no one is. 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,560 So it enters us, in the morning shines from brute comfort, 38 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,250 like a stitch of lightning, and at night lights 39 00:01:59,250 --> 00:02:01,350 up the deep and wondrous drownings 40 00:02:01,350 --> 00:02:06,700 of the body like a star." 41 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:08,320 Gail Forsyth-vail: Thank you. 42 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,130 And I'm going to invite all four of the presenters 43 00:02:13,130 --> 00:02:15,980 to introduce themselves a little bit, tell us a little bit more 44 00:02:15,980 --> 00:02:18,560 about themselves, in the order, I think, 45 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,150 that Kareem introduced you. 46 00:02:20,150 --> 00:02:23,870 So Melissa, then Alex, then Lisa, then Melanie. 47 00:02:23,870 --> 00:02:28,544 And I am going to mute my mic so you do that. 48 00:02:28,544 --> 00:02:29,460 Melissa James: Thanks. 49 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:30,150 Melissa James. 50 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:33,300 I serve as director of lifespan and family ministry 51 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:35,520 in San Diego. 52 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,190 And I use she or her pronouns. 53 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:42,000 I have gotten interested in this area 54 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,390 and really am happy to be here, because I've long been 55 00:02:45,390 --> 00:02:47,160 working on issues of gender. 56 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,970 My doctorate was largely built on that, social theory, 57 00:02:50,970 --> 00:02:52,830 but more recently the congregation 58 00:02:52,830 --> 00:02:56,550 I serve has asked me to spend a considerable part of my time 59 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:58,810 helping the congregation better serve and support 60 00:02:58,810 --> 00:03:01,310 transgender children. 61 00:03:01,310 --> 00:03:03,217 And I'm currently serving as a Fahs fellow 62 00:03:03,217 --> 00:03:05,300 with the Fahs Collective out of Meadville Lombard, 63 00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:08,600 with my research focus being on helping congregations 64 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:17,817 best support it gender created and transgender children. 65 00:03:17,817 --> 00:03:18,900 Alex Kapitan: Hi everyone. 66 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:20,640 My name is Alex Kapitan. 67 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:26,150 I was once a gender creative child in a UU congregation. 68 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:30,650 I grew up in Milwaukee at the Brookfield Church, 69 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:35,630 and since then have gone on to grow up, 70 00:03:35,630 --> 00:03:40,100 sort of, at least a little bit, and I 71 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:44,600 worked at the national office with Gail for a while, 72 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,680 doing a variety of different work with congregations, 73 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,870 including managing the Welcoming Congregation 74 00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:53,210 program for several years. 75 00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:57,410 So that's some other insight that I bring to this work. 76 00:03:57,410 --> 00:04:00,140 And I'm currently no longer working at the national office. 77 00:04:00,140 --> 00:04:05,450 I am now doing this work full time on my own, 78 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:08,030 and helping congregations and other faith groups 79 00:04:08,030 --> 00:04:12,635 and other organizations and settings being more practiced 80 00:04:12,635 --> 00:04:15,230 in radical inclusion, basically, with respect 81 00:04:15,230 --> 00:04:18,470 to all the dimensions of what makes us who we are. 82 00:04:18,470 --> 00:04:20,279 So that's a little bit about me. 83 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,710 Oh, and my pronouns are he and him, and z and her, Alex, Alex. 84 00:04:24,710 --> 00:04:26,827 Thanks. 85 00:04:26,827 --> 00:04:27,910 Lisa Ruben: Hi, everybody. 86 00:04:27,910 --> 00:04:29,460 I'm Lisa Ruben. 87 00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:31,210 I'm director of religious education 88 00:04:31,210 --> 00:04:35,090 at First Parish in Bedford, and, I think, 89 00:04:35,090 --> 00:04:39,310 I'm in my 36th year as a religious educator. 90 00:04:39,310 --> 00:04:43,570 I've served two congregations this one and on in Vermont, 91 00:04:43,570 --> 00:04:45,430 in Burlington, Vermont. 92 00:04:45,430 --> 00:04:52,590 And I am married to a person who identifies as transgender. 93 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:56,080 She's female with a male gender expression. 94 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,580 And we do work in trans community, 95 00:05:00,580 --> 00:05:02,470 and we've been doing a lot of education 96 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:05,530 around trans community and trans education. 97 00:05:05,530 --> 00:05:10,280 And our grandchild, who is now eight years old, 98 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:13,550 was assigned birth as a-- 99 00:05:13,550 --> 00:05:17,410 assigned the gender as male at birth, 100 00:05:17,410 --> 00:05:24,289 and she's a very happy eight-year-old girl, right? 101 00:05:24,289 --> 00:05:26,490 Melanie Davis: I am Melanie Davis. 102 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:30,030 I am the Our Whole Lives program association for the UUA, 103 00:05:30,030 --> 00:05:35,010 and I am on the LGBT work group here. 104 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:38,190 I am calling in from central New Jersey. 105 00:05:38,190 --> 00:05:43,050 I work remotely, and I'm just happy to be here, 106 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:53,730 to help you out in any way that we can support you. 107 00:05:53,730 --> 00:05:56,370 Gail Forsyth-vail: Thank you all. 108 00:05:56,370 --> 00:05:59,970 I'm going to explain the goals of this workshop at this point 109 00:05:59,970 --> 00:06:04,260 so we know where we're going and to be really clear 110 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:06,180 that when we first, met to talk, we 111 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:10,290 realized that in a one-hour workshop, a one-hour webinar, 112 00:06:10,290 --> 00:06:13,940 we are going to talk exclusively about children and not about 113 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:14,650 youth. 114 00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:19,740 That we feel as though there are fewer resources for children, 115 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:23,340 and that we certainly, in this period of time, 116 00:06:23,340 --> 00:06:27,450 our presenters cannot cover everything there is to cover. 117 00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:31,950 So the focus of this workshop is on children. 118 00:06:31,950 --> 00:06:35,340 Our goals are to shift the focus from individual children 119 00:06:35,340 --> 00:06:38,550 to the entire congregation and community. 120 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:41,250 To provide practical guidance and examples 121 00:06:41,250 --> 00:06:44,460 for how to support all children on their gender identity 122 00:06:44,460 --> 00:06:46,720 and expression journey. 123 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,250 To use stories and scenarios to illuminate particular practices 124 00:06:50,250 --> 00:06:54,450 that are helpful or unhelpful in supporting all children. 125 00:06:54,450 --> 00:06:56,760 To reflect on our professional context, 126 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,700 and which practices need to be changed, eliminated, 127 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:01,930 or made stronger. 128 00:07:01,930 --> 00:07:03,580 To offer information and examples 129 00:07:03,580 --> 00:07:06,190 of support for gender creative and transgender children 130 00:07:06,190 --> 00:07:10,690 and their family, and to suggest resources for further inquiry. 131 00:07:10,690 --> 00:07:12,190 And I will say, and will say again, 132 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:15,400 that you will receive an extensive list of resources 133 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,560 after the webinar. 134 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,620 You'll receive a document that has a whole bunch of resources, 135 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:23,140 so you don't need to be frantically writing things 136 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:28,930 down or typing them during the webinar. 137 00:07:28,930 --> 00:07:34,136 So I'm going to ask Lisa to read "Blue and Pink." 138 00:07:34,136 --> 00:07:39,350 [INAUDIBLE] 139 00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:41,810 Lisa Ruben: "This morning I am stuck. 140 00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:44,870 I'm stuck between blue and pink. 141 00:07:44,870 --> 00:07:47,330 Every morning I face the same decision, 142 00:07:47,330 --> 00:07:50,940 and ask the question 'How do I feel today?' 143 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:53,270 And every morning I struggle, not 144 00:07:53,270 --> 00:07:58,040 because I can't find the answer, but because I'm scared of it. 145 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,140 Because I know that I can't be purple, that's too confusing. 146 00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:14,130 But I feel purple." 147 00:08:14,130 --> 00:08:15,600 Gail Forsyth-vail: Thank you. 148 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,090 So I'm going to begin by actually addressing 149 00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:21,630 the question, why are we beginning 150 00:08:21,630 --> 00:08:23,410 by talking about the full congregation 151 00:08:23,410 --> 00:08:25,326 rather than talking about individual children. 152 00:08:25,326 --> 00:08:28,900 Why are we beginning with the big picture of the congregation 153 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:32,140 itself, rather than the individual child who may be 154 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:33,799 gender creative or transgender? 155 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:38,260 And the way we're going to do this, is one of our presenters 156 00:08:38,260 --> 00:08:40,179 is going to respond first, and then others 157 00:08:40,179 --> 00:08:43,450 will chime in with additions, and thoughts, and so on. 158 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:45,130 So there'll be a conversation going on. 159 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:47,380 At the end of the webinar, there will 160 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:49,010 be time for questions and answers, 161 00:08:49,010 --> 00:08:52,300 so please, if questions come up and you 162 00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:55,700 want to type them into the chat box, we'll keep an eye on that. 163 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:58,014 So there's our first question. 164 00:08:58,014 --> 00:09:00,430 Why are we talking about the full congregation rather than 165 00:09:00,430 --> 00:09:01,400 individual children? 166 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,110 Alex. 167 00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:04,540 Alex Kapitan: Thanks, Gail. 168 00:09:04,540 --> 00:09:08,020 So basically, the question that I 169 00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:10,420 would love to propose to folks listening 170 00:09:10,420 --> 00:09:13,860 is, who would you be if you hadn't 171 00:09:13,860 --> 00:09:20,110 been constrained when it came to your gender expression 172 00:09:20,110 --> 00:09:21,130 in the world? 173 00:09:21,130 --> 00:09:23,800 How would your life be different if we 174 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,210 didn't have this incredibly strict, and policed, 175 00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:38,370 and violently, sometimes, less policed binary of gender 176 00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:42,300 that we are given in North American culture? 177 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:44,940 Everybody listening in on this call, everybody 178 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:48,390 presenting on this webinar, has experienced 179 00:09:48,390 --> 00:09:49,450 the effects of that. 180 00:09:49,450 --> 00:09:52,830 That there are only two options in terms 181 00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:57,120 of all bodies, all expressions, all ways of being, 182 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,110 all roles, careers. 183 00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:02,590 And that there is this expectation 184 00:10:02,590 --> 00:10:04,590 that we're all going to fit into those two boxes 185 00:10:04,590 --> 00:10:08,430 with no overlap and no other options. 186 00:10:08,430 --> 00:10:12,660 And that lie-- and it is a complete lie on every single 187 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:13,440 level-- 188 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,270 that there are only these two options 189 00:10:15,270 --> 00:10:17,430 for how to approach the world and be 190 00:10:17,430 --> 00:10:21,870 in this world, that lie impacts all of us in really, really 191 00:10:21,870 --> 00:10:23,440 profound ways. 192 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:28,950 So for me as a trans person myself, 193 00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:32,160 the call that I have, among many other calls, 194 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:37,410 but one of my calls, is to help us as spiritual community 195 00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:39,060 engage with the spiritual dimension 196 00:10:39,060 --> 00:10:44,100 of what does it mean to be living in a world that forces 197 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:46,620 us to make these sorts of choices, 198 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:51,210 and to conform in ways that sometimes work for us, 199 00:10:51,210 --> 00:10:54,450 and sometimes really don't work for us, no matter who we are, 200 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:55,800 right. 201 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,390 And when it comes to our children 202 00:10:57,390 --> 00:10:59,790 in spiritual community, how can we 203 00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:03,480 create spaces so that all of our children, 204 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,680 and all of their families, and all of their family members, 205 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:12,000 can actually make intentional choices around how 206 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,430 they want to express themselves in the world in ways that 207 00:11:14,430 --> 00:11:16,260 are most authentic for them. 208 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:19,740 Because for me, I want to be able to raise 209 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:24,660 gentle, compassionate boys in our churches, 210 00:11:24,660 --> 00:11:30,330 and I want to be able to raise strong, independent girls 211 00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:35,190 in our churches, as much as I want to be able to create space 212 00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:38,340 for children who aren't boys or girls, 213 00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:42,330 or children whose expression blends the lines between what 214 00:11:42,330 --> 00:11:50,490 we generally consider to be stereotypical behavior for both 215 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:53,280 of those boxes, if that makes sense. 216 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,040 So, frankly, the reason why we need 217 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,800 to think about the entire congregation instead 218 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,860 of focusing only on a particular child 219 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:05,730 that we think may or may not be non-normative 220 00:12:05,730 --> 00:12:09,240 when it comes to gender, is because that's the call. 221 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,550 The call is creating a space in which 222 00:12:11,550 --> 00:12:15,480 all people, all members of our community of all ages, 223 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,160 can actually be able to engage from a spiritual place 224 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,220 with what does it mean to be living in this world that 225 00:12:23,220 --> 00:12:28,530 constricts us so much, and that hurts us spiritually 226 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:31,040 on a very deep level. 227 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,520 Again, no matter who you are and what your gender expression is. 228 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,220 And I'd love to just start the conversation there and let 229 00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:50,280 other folks weigh in. 230 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,010 Gail Forsyth-vail: Can you speak up, Melissa? 231 00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:57,250 It's really hard to hear you. 232 00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:58,702 I think you're muted. 233 00:12:58,702 --> 00:13:00,160 Alex Kapitan: No, I don't think so. 234 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,320 I think it's coming in and out, unfortunately. 235 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,040 Melissa James: Let me try this. 236 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,010 Is that any better? 237 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:05,890 Can you hear me now? 238 00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:07,890 Gail Forsyth-vail: Yes. 239 00:13:07,890 --> 00:13:13,160 Alex Kapitan: Try speaking slowly and loudly. 240 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,790 Melissa James: --and what we are saying 241 00:13:15,790 --> 00:13:18,610 is an approach to looking at the congregation rather than 242 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:24,400 the child, it moves us away from seeing particular children as, 243 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,740 in therapy language, the identified patient, 244 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:30,490 or a problem that needs to be addressed. 245 00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:33,250 So in terms of having-- you have a gender creative 246 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:35,144 or transgender child show up, and, oh no. 247 00:13:35,144 --> 00:13:37,060 We need to do something about this, because we 248 00:13:37,060 --> 00:13:38,500 want to be a welcoming place. 249 00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:41,025 It moves us away from that model. 250 00:13:41,025 --> 00:13:43,150 And the reason we need to move away from that model 251 00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:45,677 is because that's not the way we can 252 00:13:45,677 --> 00:13:48,010 create the love of community, it's not the way that most 253 00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:51,160 respects all children, and respect that child, right. 254 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,170 We don't look at children as problems to be dealt with. 255 00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:56,620 We look at our community as places where everyone, 256 00:13:56,620 --> 00:13:58,700 wherever we are and our gender journey-- 257 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,730 we all have gender journeys-- 258 00:14:00,730 --> 00:14:02,620 we can find a place of home. 259 00:14:02,620 --> 00:14:07,520 And then, if part of a child's and the family's gender journey 260 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,930 happens to be being transgender or gender creative, 261 00:14:10,930 --> 00:14:13,690 they are also finding homes, finding community, 262 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:22,500 among and in our places of love and community. 263 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:25,709 Gail Forsyth-vail: Melanie? 264 00:14:25,709 --> 00:14:27,250 Melanie Davis: I think another reason 265 00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:29,650 for taking a congregational approach is 266 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:34,030 that the issues of gender and gender children 267 00:14:34,030 --> 00:14:37,210 are not just a set that is should be addressed 268 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:39,400 in religious education. 269 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,280 That the whole congregation needs to be welcoming. 270 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,940 If we don't have as part of our mission 271 00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:50,560 to be welcoming to adults and to young adults and to teens, 272 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,290 you know you're kind of segmenting children, 273 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:55,750 and I think we need to look at the whole picture 274 00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:57,610 and what is the whole congregation doing 275 00:14:57,610 --> 00:14:59,650 for all ages. 276 00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:02,170 Now this webinar, of course, is just for kids, 277 00:15:02,170 --> 00:15:07,029 but I don't think we can look at it, working with children 278 00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:09,070 and their families, without looking at the bigger 279 00:15:09,070 --> 00:15:12,310 picture of how the congregation is really living a mission 280 00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:19,380 to be inclusive. 281 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:24,580 Gail Forsyth-vail: Other thoughts? 282 00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:26,810 I'm going to turn this over to Melanie, 283 00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:31,520 who's going to talk about some of the assumptions that might 284 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,520 be made in a congregation. 285 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,790 Melanie Davis: Sometimes we make assumptions 286 00:15:37,790 --> 00:15:42,020 that we're not really aware are creating 287 00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:48,200 an unwelcome, hurtful even situation. 288 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,530 As Alex was saying, this idea of gender binary 289 00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:55,400 is so ingrained in our culture and in our systems, 290 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,292 that sometimes we need to just help each other remember what 291 00:15:59,292 --> 00:16:01,250 some of these assumptions are that we're making 292 00:16:01,250 --> 00:16:04,220 so that we can address them. 293 00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:06,560 One that I hear a lot from people 294 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,040 who are facilitating or overseeing our Whole Lives 295 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,500 program is this one over on the left. 296 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:14,630 We don't have to teach the gender workshop, 297 00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:16,010 because our kids get it. 298 00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:18,890 It's kind of like we don't have to teach about orientation. 299 00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:23,570 Our kids have two parent, to same-gender parents. 300 00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:25,700 We can't make that assumption, because we 301 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:27,920 don't know what questions that children 302 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,470 have about themselves, about their families, 303 00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:32,910 about their friends. 304 00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:38,630 So we can't just kind of tell by looking who needs this. 305 00:16:38,630 --> 00:16:41,060 Everybody, everybody needs to learn 306 00:16:41,060 --> 00:16:44,150 how to be open and affirming. 307 00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:47,150 The one up on the upper right, we have separate boys and girls 308 00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:50,900 bathrooms because families are more comfortable with it. 309 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,720 Wouldn't it be lovely if we could break away 310 00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:00,320 from the idea of making everyone comfortable in a sort 311 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,250 of politically correct way, and instead make people comfortably 312 00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:06,140 globally? 313 00:17:06,140 --> 00:17:08,540 And I know in my own congregation, 314 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:13,190 when we did a renovation, we were bound by the local codes 315 00:17:13,190 --> 00:17:17,270 to put men's room and women's room on the doors. 316 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:21,074 The code said that, but as soon as you're approved, 317 00:17:21,074 --> 00:17:23,240 then you can do whatever you want with your signage. 318 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,160 So think about things like that. 319 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,809 How does that feel for people? 320 00:17:27,809 --> 00:17:30,350 This one on the bottom, we don't talk about a leader's gender 321 00:17:30,350 --> 00:17:33,590 transition because it would just confuse the children in her RE 322 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:34,970 class. 323 00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:41,450 The thing that we know is that kids are open minded by nature. 324 00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:46,860 We put the clamps down on their questions and their curiosity, 325 00:17:46,860 --> 00:17:49,400 and so if someone-- 326 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,180 let's say an RE teacher-- wants to be open 327 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:57,260 about her transition, by all means, the kids will get it. 328 00:17:57,260 --> 00:17:59,090 It's only when we treat it as something 329 00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:04,850 that needs to be hidden that it creates problems. 330 00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:08,600 As far as I can tell, there aren't any gender creative kids 331 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:09,650 in our program. 332 00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:13,010 This is like saying that every child who is gender creative 333 00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:16,760 has a label that says what their gender is. 334 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,220 That's just as bad as thinking that only girls wear 335 00:18:19,220 --> 00:18:21,740 pink and only boys wear blue, right? 336 00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:23,690 We can't tell what's going on until we 337 00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:26,960 have a conversation with someone and create an environment 338 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,470 that allows people to be expressive about who 339 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:32,550 they really are. 340 00:18:32,550 --> 00:18:36,350 So I'm wondering if people would like to type into the chat box 341 00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:41,780 other kinds of assumptions that might be made about what we're 342 00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:44,720 doing in our congregations, or that's 343 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,050 either right or wrong, or kind of fuzzy, confusing, 344 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:57,612 and we don't know. 345 00:18:57,612 --> 00:18:59,070 Gail Forsyth-vail: And while people 346 00:18:59,070 --> 00:19:01,620 are typing, if any of the presenters 347 00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:05,012 want to name many other assumptions. 348 00:19:05,012 --> 00:19:06,720 Give people a minute to type while you're 349 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,570 doing that, it would the great. 350 00:19:12,570 --> 00:19:15,810 Alex Kapitan: This is Alex, and I'll just say that oftentimes, 351 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:19,190 as a kind of [INAUDIBLE] folks realize 352 00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:24,960 and have experienced personally about this webinar, what 353 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,440 comes across as an assumption is actually [INAUDIBLE] for it 354 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,540 to change, right? 355 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:35,400 So being able to really be curious and gentle with that, 356 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,950 when you encounter those sorts of assumptions, 357 00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:42,810 or pushback, or resistance, whether in yourself 358 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:46,230 or in other people within your congregation 359 00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:47,320 is really important. 360 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,040 Being able to ask open-ended questions of yourself 361 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,490 to sort of tease out where is this coming from. 362 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:57,720 Is this coming from a place of personal discomfort 363 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,460 with gender difference? 364 00:19:59,460 --> 00:20:02,940 Is this coming from a fear of change? 365 00:20:02,940 --> 00:20:08,400 Is this coming from real concern about particular people 366 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,550 in the congregation or the congregation as a whole? 367 00:20:11,550 --> 00:20:15,810 And how can asking those sorts of questions 368 00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:21,800 help us get to the real, faith-based, compassionate way 369 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:31,940 forward, as opposed to being reactive or trying to make 370 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:33,054 everyone feel comfortable. 371 00:20:33,054 --> 00:20:34,970 And we know that that's not actually possible, 372 00:20:34,970 --> 00:20:36,720 that comfort isn't a goal. 373 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:43,104 The goal is safety and liberation, frankly-- 374 00:20:43,104 --> 00:20:44,270 Gail Forsyth-vail: OK, I'm-- 375 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:48,320 Alex Kapitan: --that doesn't often get couched that way, 376 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,102 need to be unpacked a little bit. 377 00:20:50,102 --> 00:20:52,060 Gail Forsyth-vail: I think we need to make that 378 00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:53,230 into a bumper sticker, Alex. 379 00:20:53,230 --> 00:20:54,610 Right I'm going to read something 380 00:20:54,610 --> 00:20:58,680 about the goals of comfort and safety liberation. 381 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,955 Alex Kapitan: The goal is not comfort. 382 00:21:00,955 --> 00:21:03,455 Gail Forsyth-vail: I'm going to read some of the things that 383 00:21:03,455 --> 00:21:05,740 came in the chat box here. 384 00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:08,410 Jill Schwendimann says an assumption also 385 00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:11,770 is that since everyone has unique qualities, 386 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:18,935 gender shouldn't be highlighted or given special treatment. 387 00:21:18,935 --> 00:21:21,060 Making the assumption-- from Danielle Bell-- making 388 00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:22,601 the assumption that someone will want 389 00:21:22,601 --> 00:21:24,760 to be forthcoming about their pronouns, 390 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,820 oh an interesting one. 391 00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:29,320 Lisa Ruben: I'd like to talk about that one for a second, 392 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,750 because what I've noticed, I go to a lot 393 00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:34,950 of sexalogical conferences for professional development, 394 00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:39,490 and to talk about OWL, and they often have pins-- 395 00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:42,610 and you can pick which can or ribbon identifies 396 00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:44,590 your pronouns. 397 00:21:44,590 --> 00:21:48,700 And what I observed is that typically the people who 398 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,430 are identified as straight, who I knew to be straight, 399 00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:55,090 personally, didn't put stickers on for their / 400 00:21:55,090 --> 00:21:59,710 and that other-ises the people that put the ribbons on. 401 00:21:59,710 --> 00:22:02,410 And so I think that if you're going 402 00:22:02,410 --> 00:22:04,390 to do something like label name tags 403 00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:06,010 or stick ribbons for those people-- 404 00:22:06,010 --> 00:22:09,310 you know, encourage the cisgender, 405 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:12,580 straight, binary people to do it, too, 406 00:22:12,580 --> 00:22:17,980 so that it doesn't put so much pressure on the people who have 407 00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:24,366 pronouns other than he and she. 408 00:22:24,366 --> 00:22:26,490 Gail Forsyth-vail: Joyce Dunkin says because we are 409 00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:29,220 a "welcoming congregation"-- in quotes-- 410 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:32,090 we don't need to discuss LGBTQ issues anymore. 411 00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:40,920 The OK. 412 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,200 Scott Stewart says assumptions about pronouns, 413 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,076 especially the binary terms-- so, 414 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:47,700 I think that means assuming that people 415 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:52,370 are assuming people's pronouns rather than asking people 416 00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:56,490 their pronouns. 417 00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:59,430 Lisa Ruben: So if I could answer that Our Whole Lives one, 418 00:22:59,430 --> 00:23:04,050 yes we used to say have a male and a female facilitator. 419 00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:05,730 We no longer do that. 420 00:23:05,730 --> 00:23:08,100 Now we look for diversity, so they 421 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:13,560 may be different genders as opposed to opposite genders. 422 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,610 One may be physically abled, and one may be differently abled. 423 00:23:17,610 --> 00:23:21,180 One may be neuro-typical and one may have autism. 424 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:23,670 Though So we're looking at encouraging people 425 00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:32,412 to go for difference rather than binary male-female teams. 426 00:23:32,412 --> 00:23:33,870 Gail Forsyth-vail: Tamara McClellan 427 00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:37,830 says we can often focus on the support needed 428 00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:40,657 by the individual, but what about the parents and families? 429 00:23:40,657 --> 00:23:42,990 They need support, as they are on the journey with this, 430 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:45,440 as well. 431 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,820 Agreed. 432 00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:50,320 Mia Noran says figuring out overnight 433 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,110 and how to comfortably house everyone. 434 00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:54,500 Well that's interesting. 435 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,500 You should probably talk about that a little bit 436 00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:01,900 when we get into the congregational stuff. 437 00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:04,090 Carolyn Bearse says a gender-neutral bathroom 438 00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:07,420 can also serve as an accessible bathroom, another step 439 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:11,080 toward radical inclusivity. 440 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,850 Adina-- I think I said that right. 441 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:15,270 I hope I said that right-- 442 00:24:15,270 --> 00:24:17,640 Dinu says, "Stating pronouns during introductions 443 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,370 is stupid because I can already tell what to call someone 444 00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:21,300 by looking at them." 445 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,850 That's in quotes, so that's, I'm assuming, 446 00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:30,720 something that Adina has heard said. 447 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,510 Patty Withers says gender creative children are just 448 00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:36,010 going through a phase. 449 00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:40,730 I'm seeing some nodding in our presenter panel. 450 00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:44,330 Jill says another is looking to a family or child the experts 451 00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:45,830 and have it all figured out, and ask 452 00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:47,570 them to be the educators on it instead 453 00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:50,480 of having them be in a community of support, dialogue, 454 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,180 and spirits. 455 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:57,100 Danielle says the challenge for congregation 456 00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:00,150 connect to connect this to safe congregations. 457 00:25:00,150 --> 00:25:05,210 I'm assuming state parties and policies and procedures. 458 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:08,680 Iris talks not dividing our classes by gender, 459 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:18,120 especially to deal with behavior-related issues. 460 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,400 Elsie says, I fight against an old assumption 461 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,150 that OWL leader teams need to be one male and female. 462 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:26,520 My gender is obvious, so I don't need 463 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,770 to wear my pronouns is a second one. 464 00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:32,340 So I just talked about the OWL assumption, 465 00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:35,040 and somebody else had talked about the 466 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,985 "I don't need my pronouns," "I don't 467 00:25:37,985 --> 00:25:40,100 need to wear my pronouns." 468 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:42,620 Shannon said, I was thinking about changing our registration 469 00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:46,400 forms, membership, and RE to do away with a gender designation 470 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,710 and just ask for preferred pronouns. 471 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:51,740 Is this acceptable, from your point of view? 472 00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:54,950 I think we're going to talk about that anyway. 473 00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:58,130 Shall we do that now? 474 00:25:58,130 --> 00:25:59,110 Well, wait until later. 475 00:25:59,110 --> 00:26:02,180 We'll get to that one. 476 00:26:02,180 --> 00:26:03,150 OK. 477 00:26:03,150 --> 00:26:05,270 And Joe says it's important to help the family, 478 00:26:05,270 --> 00:26:09,570 as it addresses issues raised with schools. 479 00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:10,770 OK. 480 00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:12,430 Thank you all. 481 00:26:12,430 --> 00:26:14,430 And we're going to move along. 482 00:26:14,430 --> 00:26:20,830 We will have Q&A time. 483 00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:23,360 The next question is how can congregations 484 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,080 move beyond practices that reinforce 485 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,470 the gender binary to embrace the full range of gender 486 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:28,292 expression? 487 00:26:28,292 --> 00:26:30,000 So we're actually, at this point in time, 488 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,810 we're going to be talking about practices, 489 00:26:31,810 --> 00:26:38,072 and we're going to invite Melissa to speak first to this. 490 00:26:38,072 --> 00:26:39,530 Melissa James: And as I speak, feel 491 00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:43,340 free to fill out the chat box with specific things 492 00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:45,110 that you've implemented, or tried, 493 00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:46,550 or continue the questions going. 494 00:26:46,550 --> 00:26:48,620 I'd love to hear your insights. 495 00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:53,050 This is a journey that we are all on in every congregation, 496 00:26:53,050 --> 00:26:54,290 in every community. 497 00:26:54,290 --> 00:26:57,140 It's working, and it's one that there isn't a perfect answer 498 00:26:57,140 --> 00:26:59,120 and there isn't a one size fits all, 499 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,040 how do I do this manual that will 500 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,170 work in every congregation. 501 00:27:04,170 --> 00:27:06,770 So there are three things I want to name and then see 502 00:27:06,770 --> 00:27:09,350 what the other presenters have to say, too, 503 00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:12,830 in terms of moving us beyond a gender 504 00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:15,830 binary within the congregation. 505 00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:17,960 The first step I would suggest is 506 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,780 that you take some time to do some assessment. 507 00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:23,840 Take time to look at your programs, 508 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,970 walk through your congregation on whatever days 509 00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:28,460 you have programs or worship, and look 510 00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:30,170 at where is gender at play? 511 00:27:30,170 --> 00:27:32,530 Where are the binaries implicit? 512 00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:34,370 Where are they exploit? 513 00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:36,760 And have your leaders do that, right. 514 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,180 How amazing would it be if you've 515 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:40,550 got all of your religious education leaders 516 00:27:40,550 --> 00:27:43,370 together to think through this experience? 517 00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:46,610 The more you can identify where is this working, where 518 00:27:46,610 --> 00:27:48,620 is gender at play, the more you can then 519 00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:51,500 be intentional about saying, oh, we don't need this. 520 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,660 Like the comment about taking gender off 521 00:27:53,660 --> 00:27:55,370 the registration form. 522 00:27:55,370 --> 00:27:56,930 Why do we need that there? 523 00:27:56,930 --> 00:28:00,140 Same things can happen all over the campus, all over the way 524 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:00,890 we do the program. 525 00:28:00,890 --> 00:28:03,790 So take time to do an assessment. 526 00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:06,910 Once you do that, take time to do your homework. 527 00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:09,310 Coming here is a great place to start. 528 00:28:09,310 --> 00:28:12,940 There's a lot of great resources for you to do as a leader 529 00:28:12,940 --> 00:28:16,270 and as an educator, to learn the things that you 530 00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:17,770 need to learn, and encourage others 531 00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:20,200 to do the learning, as well. 532 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,110 So you can start breaking apart some of the myths 533 00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:25,450 that we've already started to name, that the kids are 534 00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:27,880 too young to know their gender. 535 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,870 Two and 1/2 people can have a good solid understanding 536 00:28:31,870 --> 00:28:34,030 of their gender identity. 537 00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:37,690 And a lot of what we do is so steeped in adultism, this idea 538 00:28:37,690 --> 00:28:40,840 that kids can't know, or kids can't fully express themselves. 539 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,890 We're having to challenge that. 540 00:28:42,890 --> 00:28:44,790 It's just a phase. 541 00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:47,110 For some children, playing with gender 542 00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:49,470 is a part of them figuring themselves out, 543 00:28:49,470 --> 00:28:52,450 but for a whole lot of them, they 544 00:28:52,450 --> 00:28:54,850 can know really early that they are transgender or gender 545 00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:57,224 creative, and that's something that will stick with them. 546 00:28:57,224 --> 00:28:59,440 And so dismissing them that learning 547 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,110 the truth you need to do, so that when that assumption comes 548 00:29:02,110 --> 00:29:05,080 up, you're able to say, wait a second here. 549 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,210 So doing some of your homework there. 550 00:29:07,210 --> 00:29:10,990 And some of our resources will point you to that, as well. 551 00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:13,660 But then, the biggest thing that I've found to be effective 552 00:29:13,660 --> 00:29:16,450 is offering alternatives. 553 00:29:16,450 --> 00:29:18,820 Once I do an assessment, if I go around like, 554 00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:20,260 is this we're doing that's binary, 555 00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:21,676 is this we're doing that's binary, 556 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:25,370 is this we're doing that binary, that hasn't been affective. 557 00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:31,490 But when I've been able to offer my RE leaders alternatives, 558 00:29:31,490 --> 00:29:33,150 then they're able to get those tools. 559 00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:38,110 And so we spend a good deal of time in our RE retreat 560 00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:40,630 at the beginning of a year practicing and learning 561 00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:42,790 alternatives to things like addressing 562 00:29:42,790 --> 00:29:44,235 the class as boys and girls. 563 00:29:44,235 --> 00:29:47,980 So I would recommend that, as children or friends, 564 00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:52,150 finding non-binary language to offer them. 565 00:29:52,150 --> 00:29:54,970 I've done trainings with our ushers, 566 00:29:54,970 --> 00:29:59,270 who tend to be of generations where this is really, really 567 00:29:59,270 --> 00:29:59,770 new. 568 00:29:59,770 --> 00:30:03,370 It's really new for all of us, right, for many of us. 569 00:30:03,370 --> 00:30:06,730 But to be in a generation that, even 570 00:30:06,730 --> 00:30:11,180 in their wonderful attempts to connect to our children, 571 00:30:11,180 --> 00:30:14,510 it's oh, don't you look pretty, to the little people 572 00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:17,470 they read as girls, and oh, aren't you smart, 573 00:30:17,470 --> 00:30:20,140 to the people they read to the children they read as boys. 574 00:30:20,140 --> 00:30:22,600 So helping them have alternatives in terms of ways 575 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,140 to engage with the children. 576 00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:28,240 And then watching the language we use. 577 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,040 One of the ones coming from Minnesota, 578 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,980 I didn't grow up with you all, and so you guys-- 579 00:30:32,980 --> 00:30:36,640 tend to be one of my fallback ways with grass roots. 580 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,785 And catching myself and saying, oh, I'm 581 00:30:38,785 --> 00:30:40,410 gendering the way I'm talking to people 582 00:30:40,410 --> 00:30:43,560 in ways that are unnecessary. 583 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,980 And building in to practice and modeling, 584 00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:50,260 being gender expansive in the way we talk. 585 00:30:50,260 --> 00:30:53,110 So someone brought up the issue of pronouns, 586 00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:57,430 and that can be a tricky place, not just for cis gender people 587 00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:59,710 like myself, who aren't used to having 588 00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:02,900 to talk about pronouns, but even within trans communities. 589 00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:06,250 The idea of having to identify your pronouns-- 590 00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:08,000 don't I pass enough-- 591 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,550 they can be tricky. 592 00:31:09,550 --> 00:31:13,030 But what I've found is within most groups, 593 00:31:13,030 --> 00:31:16,030 modeling, being able to name the pronouns that you 594 00:31:16,030 --> 00:31:19,090 want to use as just a part of common practice, 595 00:31:19,090 --> 00:31:22,474 doesn't make it something that isolates any particular child. 596 00:31:22,474 --> 00:31:24,390 You don't start asking pronouns because you've 597 00:31:24,390 --> 00:31:26,139 got a gender-creative child that you don't 598 00:31:26,139 --> 00:31:27,550 know what pronouns to use for. 599 00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:30,820 You do it for everyone as as way of showing respect. 600 00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:34,310 The question about the registration form 601 00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:36,010 was a really good one, of looking 602 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:39,281 at what do we have information on there for. 603 00:31:39,281 --> 00:31:40,280 What do you need it for? 604 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,972 And what are the ways to do it? 605 00:31:42,972 --> 00:31:45,430 And there are different models, depending on your community 606 00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:46,054 and your needs. 607 00:31:46,054 --> 00:31:52,120 So whether it's a blank for pronouns, a blank that just 608 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640 asks for more information, the same as we 609 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,670 were talking about this as we were prepping for this. 610 00:31:57,670 --> 00:32:01,780 The same way that we made space for different abilities, just 611 00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:04,720 by asking for families to tell us more 612 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,360 about the needs of their child. 613 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,430 The same thing can be done with gender, and that 614 00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:12,160 can be a really effective way to do it, 615 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,014 And then I think what I love about some 616 00:32:14,014 --> 00:32:15,430 of the comments that have come up, 617 00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:17,805 and then I'll open it up to some of the other presenters, 618 00:32:17,805 --> 00:32:21,880 too, is really keeping an eye to the family, of looking at what 619 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,440 is it that the family is needing, 620 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,680 and what sort of support is it that you're able to provide 621 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,080 the entire family. 622 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,990 If there are siblings involved, what support 623 00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:34,360 are they needing, and knowing when you need to outsource. 624 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,340 Finding places beyond the congregation 625 00:32:36,340 --> 00:32:38,402 to connect people to. 626 00:32:38,402 --> 00:32:39,860 Just some initial thoughts from me. 627 00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:42,370 I'd love to hear what some of the other presenters 628 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:43,000 have to say. 629 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:49,955 It looks like we've got some good comments in the chat box. 630 00:32:49,955 --> 00:32:52,174 Lisa Ruben: I'd like to add to that, too. 631 00:32:52,174 --> 00:32:53,090 Gail Forsyth-vail: OK. 632 00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:54,370 Go ahead 633 00:32:54,370 --> 00:33:00,990 Lisa Ruben: So, having books in your library that reflect 634 00:33:00,990 --> 00:33:09,670 gender-creative children and trans children, and having-- 635 00:33:09,670 --> 00:33:11,470 I don't know what kind of libraries 636 00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:13,950 different RE programs have, but if you 637 00:33:13,950 --> 00:33:18,850 have an adult shelf having books in the library that supports 638 00:33:18,850 --> 00:33:23,740 [INAUDIBLE], then we have a resource list, a book resource 639 00:33:23,740 --> 00:33:31,480 list, that's going to be available. 640 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,020 Making use of teachable moments, you 641 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:36,160 know, being aware of teachable moments 642 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,200 and not letting them slip by. 643 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,520 Sometimes we're too busy that we don't even notice them, 644 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,960 but slowing down, listening, and taking 645 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,570 time for teachable moments. 646 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:55,630 And in the stories for all ages, however 647 00:33:55,630 --> 00:33:58,690 religious educators and anyone else in your congregation 648 00:33:58,690 --> 00:34:04,930 does the story, when I do the story-- 649 00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:13,370 this isn't just because I don't want to say pronouns-- 650 00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:16,874 sometimes I'll use a name that you 651 00:34:16,874 --> 00:34:21,600 can't identify the gender of the child in the story 652 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,830 by the pronoun, and let the kids and let the people listening 653 00:34:25,830 --> 00:34:30,320 to the story decide for themselves who 654 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,120 that character is. 655 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:38,760 And when I call the kid, I say everyone-- hey everyone, 656 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,350 you know. 657 00:34:40,350 --> 00:34:46,590 And another thing we'll hear, I call our children 658 00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:51,310 in our program kids, and so when I refer to them 659 00:34:51,310 --> 00:34:54,315 and even if I'm writing something, 660 00:34:54,315 --> 00:34:59,370 I use Kids with a capital K. we're UU Kids, 661 00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:01,860 and they identify as UU kids. 662 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:04,530 So then I'm not saying the boys, the girls, 663 00:35:04,530 --> 00:35:10,320 and we're not making people have to choose for them 664 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,300 and struggle either. 665 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:17,717 Those are some of the-- 666 00:35:17,717 --> 00:35:20,050 Gail Forsyth-vail: I'm going to read some of things that 667 00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:21,389 Melanie you ask me personally 668 00:35:21,389 --> 00:35:22,930 Melanie Davis: Yeah, I was just going 669 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:29,860 to suggest if you have like a dress up box, or a costume box, 670 00:35:29,860 --> 00:35:32,440 your congregation might be the only place 671 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,950 that a child gets to really just explore. 672 00:35:35,950 --> 00:35:37,750 Because if they're in kindergarten 673 00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:40,910 there might be the girls clothes and the boys clothes, 674 00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:44,350 and their teachers might not be welcome. 675 00:35:44,350 --> 00:35:47,620 But if you can just toss a bunch of different assets 676 00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:50,620 out and let the kids pick what they want to pick, 677 00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:53,734 all the better. 678 00:35:53,734 --> 00:35:54,650 Gail Forsyth-vail: OK. 679 00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:57,220 And I'm going to read from the chat box. 680 00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:00,290 Mia says, I change our heritage station form to ask gender 681 00:36:00,290 --> 00:36:02,840 and not giving the binary choice. 682 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,200 I've had folks thank me for doing that. 683 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,380 Danielle says I rearranged the language that I use. 684 00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:13,820 Encourage volunteers to reframe language using folks, friends, 685 00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:17,150 everybody, etc., etc., instead of the hey and gals, boys 686 00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:17,930 and girls. 687 00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:20,570 When I tell or I read a story sometimes, 688 00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:25,490 I use they, them, their for the character pronouns. 689 00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:28,340 When talking about all genders restrooms and signage, 690 00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:30,791 no reference to gender on our UU registration, 691 00:36:30,791 --> 00:36:32,165 using stories in the service that 692 00:36:32,165 --> 00:36:35,240 have gender-creative or transgender children in them, 693 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:43,060 transgender children play group monthly for the community. 694 00:36:43,060 --> 00:36:45,140 Andrea James is talking about I can't 695 00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:47,360 think of a reason I'd need to know gender. 696 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,940 In terms of old school how many girls, are boys, 697 00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:52,910 so I can program differently for them. 698 00:36:52,910 --> 00:36:54,680 So I've asked either, is there anything 699 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,770 you'd like us to know about your child's gender, 700 00:36:57,770 --> 00:37:05,313 or, pronouns she, her, they, them, he, she, other. 701 00:37:05,313 --> 00:37:07,160 OK. 702 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,410 And a picture book, Blue A Crayon story. 703 00:37:13,410 --> 00:37:13,910 OK. 704 00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:17,149 Anything else before we move on? 705 00:37:17,149 --> 00:37:18,690 Alex Kapitan: Just one quick comment, 706 00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:21,450 which is just to add to what everyone else has said 707 00:37:21,450 --> 00:37:25,710 that the number one thing I feel like anyone could do is always, 708 00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:29,760 always assume that there is someone present who 709 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,590 is non-conforming in some way in terms of gender. 710 00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:37,830 Because so often, we don't do any of these things 711 00:37:37,830 --> 00:37:42,390 until we feel like there is a person, like Melissa was 712 00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:45,180 talking about, it becomes this crisis situation 713 00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:48,780 instead of just starting from a baseline assumption 714 00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:51,780 that there's always somebody in the room for whom 715 00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:53,700 the general rules don't apply. 716 00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:56,220 And if we always work from that place 717 00:37:56,220 --> 00:37:58,410 and encourage RE teachers to work 718 00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:02,320 from that place and everybody else, that changes everything. 719 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,780 It just shifts the way that we really relate and take 720 00:38:06,780 --> 00:38:08,250 on this work. 721 00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:11,130 Because odds are there is someone present 722 00:38:11,130 --> 00:38:14,610 in every single situation, whether you can tell or not, 723 00:38:14,610 --> 00:38:16,910 and you probably won't be able to tell. 724 00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:18,870 And that's important, right? 725 00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:22,870 But making that assumption is a huge first step and rounding 726 00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:25,374 step for all of this work. 727 00:38:25,374 --> 00:38:29,970 Gail Forsyth-vail: Thank you. 728 00:38:29,970 --> 00:38:33,720 The next question I'm going to invite Lisa to speak first. 729 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:35,460 And what are some ways to support 730 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:38,010 a gender-creative or transgender child in your family? 731 00:38:38,010 --> 00:38:42,690 So, beyond the congregational actions, practical actions, 732 00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:46,290 what are some ways to support a child and their family 733 00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:51,920 when you know the child is gender creative or transgender? 734 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,860 Lisa Ruben: So I was going to speak-- we've 735 00:38:55,860 --> 00:38:58,970 been speaking about the child. 736 00:38:58,970 --> 00:39:02,760 But I wanted to speak about what happens when a family 737 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,630 member comes to us, a religious educator, 738 00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:10,710 and this can be a parent or it could 739 00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:13,980 be a grandparent who is a member of your congregation 740 00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:15,120 but the child is not. 741 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:22,470 Or an aunt or an uncle, a family member or a relative, and we're 742 00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:24,840 just speaking about children right now. 743 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,600 So. 744 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,610 the very first thing is to make sure 745 00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:33,360 that you have a quiet, designated space to be 746 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,500 able to listen to them. 747 00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:37,440 If they've come to you on a busy Sunday, 748 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,890 to create a time that you can do with them, 749 00:39:40,890 --> 00:39:45,330 and give them a real safe space and listen first, 750 00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:50,930 and validate their concerns. 751 00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:56,270 And acknowledge that they love this child 752 00:39:56,270 --> 00:39:59,000 and that this is new. 753 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,030 Acknowledge that it's new for them. 754 00:40:01,030 --> 00:40:04,430 To acknowledge their feelings around it. 755 00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:08,540 I offer resource books-- like I said, 756 00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:10,130 we have books in our library-- 757 00:40:10,130 --> 00:40:16,010 I offer resource with, and provide websites, 758 00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:22,130 and the websites keep changing, because good and better things 759 00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:23,000 keep coming out. 760 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,130 So I give websites, and I definitely, 761 00:40:28,130 --> 00:40:33,566 especially for parents, I suggest 762 00:40:33,566 --> 00:40:35,890 that you send them to Pflag. 763 00:40:35,890 --> 00:40:44,600 Have them contact their Pflag chapter. 764 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,120 There's a chapter in-- 765 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,490 I don't know if you say chapter-- 766 00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:53,500 but Pflag has PflagT. 767 00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:57,670 They have parents of gender-free and trans children, 768 00:40:57,670 --> 00:41:01,210 and it's a great support system. 769 00:41:01,210 --> 00:41:08,905 So you know, the message is that the child is important, 770 00:41:08,905 --> 00:41:12,180 and that you have to listen to the child, 771 00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:13,710 what the child is saying. 772 00:41:13,710 --> 00:41:21,490 And when it's young children, yeah, it could be a phase, 773 00:41:21,490 --> 00:41:22,570 but you don't know. 774 00:41:22,570 --> 00:41:24,880 And you can be just phases, the whole 775 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,590 is their whole life not a phase in a point in their life. 776 00:41:29,590 --> 00:41:34,690 But I know that in some children, 777 00:41:34,690 --> 00:41:38,780 they're just wanting to-- 778 00:41:38,780 --> 00:41:40,460 they don't understand gender. 779 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:41,660 Why can't I play with this? 780 00:41:41,660 --> 00:41:43,490 Why can't I, just like that? 781 00:41:43,490 --> 00:41:48,760 But if a child is clearly saying this is who I am, 782 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:57,390 listen, you know, just listen and love them. 783 00:41:57,390 --> 00:42:02,760 You almost have to take it one place at a time. 784 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,030 And you had one parent say-- 785 00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:13,910 and this is actually a parent of an older trans-- 786 00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:17,420 not identifying as a gender-- 787 00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:21,050 and wanting the family the term their. 788 00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:23,710 And the mom came up with something 789 00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:29,240 where she said well I look at my child, I've really struggled. 790 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,035 Because people struggle with the grammar 791 00:42:33,035 --> 00:42:35,360 incorrection as they see it. 792 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:41,140 And she said I look at my child as a whole make up of cells. 793 00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:44,230 And there's billions of cells in my child's body. 794 00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:47,110 So that's how she looks at the their. 795 00:42:47,110 --> 00:42:51,220 She just seeing the billions of cells. 796 00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:59,260 They are who they say they are. 797 00:42:59,260 --> 00:43:00,830 I think it's just really important 798 00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:03,830 to validate people, give them space. 799 00:43:03,830 --> 00:43:06,350 Give them space to come back to you. 800 00:43:06,350 --> 00:43:10,370 Have books in your office that you can loan right to them. 801 00:43:10,370 --> 00:43:16,237 And there's a book out called Who Am I? 802 00:43:16,237 --> 00:43:17,070 Is that what it was? 803 00:43:17,070 --> 00:43:20,711 Gayle, I just gave it to you. 804 00:43:20,711 --> 00:43:22,680 I'll have to look that back up. 805 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:28,160 Who Am I? 806 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,490 It's for every child. 807 00:43:29,490 --> 00:43:31,950 And it has a wheel at the back of it. 808 00:43:31,950 --> 00:43:34,320 You can pull this wheel out of the book. 809 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:35,610 And what do I like? 810 00:43:35,610 --> 00:43:40,450 What do I feel like today? 811 00:43:40,450 --> 00:43:42,260 Kids can just turn it and turn it. 812 00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:51,102 And they can be someone different every day. 813 00:43:51,102 --> 00:43:53,830 It has really good resources and questions 814 00:43:53,830 --> 00:43:56,190 in the back for parents on gender. 815 00:43:56,190 --> 00:43:59,790 So I just give parents resources and try and keep them 816 00:43:59,790 --> 00:44:01,200 in my office. 817 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:02,800 And they're not in my office right now 818 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,166 because everyone has them. 819 00:44:07,166 --> 00:44:09,190 Speaker 2: And Lisa, I actually wanted 820 00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:13,890 to ask you before we go on to talk about what 821 00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:17,070 happens when someone tells you they're pregnant, 822 00:44:17,070 --> 00:44:19,770 or brings a new baby? 823 00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:23,020 And how you model a response to that. 824 00:44:23,020 --> 00:44:28,014 And then we can invite other people to chime in too. 825 00:44:28,014 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: There's especially a big thing now 826 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,560 where are parties to find out what the child's gender is. 827 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,630 They may cut open a cake and it's either blue inside or pink 828 00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:39,920 inside. 829 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,640 And I start whisking that conversation off right away. 830 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,450 And when people tell me when someone is pregnant, 831 00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:52,130 and they say it's a girl. 832 00:44:52,130 --> 00:44:53,480 How do you know? 833 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,790 Well, the sonogram says, and the report says it's a girl. 834 00:44:58,790 --> 00:45:00,367 Well how do we know it's a girl? 835 00:45:00,367 --> 00:45:01,450 Well it looks like a girl. 836 00:45:01,450 --> 00:45:05,430 Well, or it looks like a boy. 837 00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:08,930 And I suggest people just wait when the child tells them 838 00:45:08,930 --> 00:45:10,310 who they are. 839 00:45:10,310 --> 00:45:13,480 Because I think that it's in the very beginning, 840 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:19,340 it's in the pregnancy that it starts happening with parents. 841 00:45:19,340 --> 00:45:22,040 They start visualizing what gender 842 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,700 they think their child is. 843 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:28,550 And that right way sets them up for disappointment 844 00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:37,080 if their child is not and is stating that they are not 845 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,910 the gender that the parents think 846 00:45:38,910 --> 00:45:42,360 they are and want them to be. 847 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,650 So I'm always the uncomfortable person in the room. 848 00:45:47,650 --> 00:45:49,860 But the person that makes the room uncomfortable, 849 00:45:49,860 --> 00:45:52,325 I should say about that. 850 00:45:52,325 --> 00:45:55,345 Speaker 2: Thank you. 851 00:45:55,345 --> 00:46:00,747 Any one else want to speak? 852 00:46:00,747 --> 00:46:02,330 Speaker 3: A lot of the work that I've 853 00:46:02,330 --> 00:46:04,580 been doing with my [INAUDIBLE] research has really 854 00:46:04,580 --> 00:46:06,800 focused on parents. 855 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,860 And part of that is because I've really 856 00:46:08,860 --> 00:46:13,250 started to see that a good number of our programs, 857 00:46:13,250 --> 00:46:15,362 you all as leaders, are really making 858 00:46:15,362 --> 00:46:17,570 good strides to supporting the children and the youth 859 00:46:17,570 --> 00:46:18,350 specifically. 860 00:46:18,350 --> 00:46:20,380 And where there's a real need is around 861 00:46:20,380 --> 00:46:22,940 the support of the parents. 862 00:46:22,940 --> 00:46:25,960 That kids who come home from camp and with they 863 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,670 and theirs on their name tags. 864 00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:31,050 And parents will be like, what do I do with this? 865 00:46:31,050 --> 00:46:33,020 And so looking at how do we support parents? 866 00:46:33,020 --> 00:46:34,820 And so some of the things that I've 867 00:46:34,820 --> 00:46:40,070 learned throughout my research and in talking with parents 868 00:46:40,070 --> 00:46:42,770 is that some of the things that are most hungry for 869 00:46:42,770 --> 00:46:46,069 are a place where they can voice their concerns. 870 00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:47,610 A lot of what Lisa was talking about. 871 00:46:47,610 --> 00:46:51,680 And what's really important is that's not with their kids. 872 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,530 So that they have a place that's not with their kids, 873 00:46:54,530 --> 00:46:57,650 so that if they need to talk about grieving the loss of what 874 00:46:57,650 --> 00:47:01,310 they thought they had, the gender they had had as a child, 875 00:47:01,310 --> 00:47:03,260 they have that that's not something 876 00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:05,540 the kid has to experience. 877 00:47:05,540 --> 00:47:09,770 Or they want a safe place to express their real fears. 878 00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:11,030 Because parenting is hard. 879 00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:14,480 And parenting a gender creative or a trans kid 880 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,730 comes with its own fears and worries. 881 00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:18,810 They need a safe place to do that. 882 00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:22,820 So whether that's with you as a trusted leader 883 00:47:22,820 --> 00:47:24,642 or hooking them up with other parents which 884 00:47:24,642 --> 00:47:26,850 is something else that they've been really hungry for 885 00:47:26,850 --> 00:47:28,620 is this conversation with other parents 886 00:47:28,620 --> 00:47:30,310 going through similar things. 887 00:47:30,310 --> 00:47:32,510 So having in your back pocket a way 888 00:47:32,510 --> 00:47:35,480 to say here's a way that you can connect with them, 889 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,450 whether that's online, Gender Spectrum 890 00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:38,970 is a great place for that. 891 00:47:38,970 --> 00:47:41,919 Or maybe a local group where they can meet each other. 892 00:47:41,919 --> 00:47:43,460 And then the only other thing I would 893 00:47:43,460 --> 00:47:48,510 say [AUDIO OUT] is that in thinking about this, 894 00:47:48,510 --> 00:47:51,090 don't forget the siblings. 895 00:47:51,090 --> 00:47:57,540 Because especially as the family goes on their gender journey, 896 00:47:57,540 --> 00:48:01,050 I often hear the phrase that the whole family transitions. 897 00:48:01,050 --> 00:48:04,380 And so making sure that if there are siblings involved, 898 00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:08,240 that they have space and ways to connect 899 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:15,765 and be supported as well. 900 00:48:15,765 --> 00:48:18,100 Speaker 2: I'm actually going to move us along 901 00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:21,160 and say yes, the book that Lisa was talking about, 902 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,770 the exact title of that is on an upcoming slide, I promise. 903 00:48:23,770 --> 00:48:27,010 And it will come out with the resources list as well. 904 00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:30,220 And Gender Spectrum is also coming out 905 00:48:30,220 --> 00:48:31,600 on the resource list. 906 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,730 So our next-- oh, yes. 907 00:48:33,730 --> 00:48:35,420 These slides. 908 00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:38,450 This is Lisa with her grandchild. 909 00:48:38,450 --> 00:48:40,290 And her grandchild. 910 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:45,024 Speaker 1: This is my-- am I muted? 911 00:48:45,024 --> 00:48:47,050 Speaker 2: No you're speaking. 912 00:48:47,050 --> 00:48:49,385 You're fine. 913 00:48:49,385 --> 00:48:53,620 Speaker 1: So yeah, that was the first day that Dee was born. 914 00:48:53,620 --> 00:48:57,580 And the picture in the upper corner 915 00:48:57,580 --> 00:49:04,900 is when she came to visit with me for a week when 916 00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:10,000 she was three years old and did not have parents with her. 917 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,090 And at that time she was a little boy. 918 00:49:13,090 --> 00:49:16,240 And she loved my scarves. 919 00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:19,720 And I gave her a scarf to wear and she just 920 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,280 wanted to wear it around her waist. 921 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:21,820 We went out. 922 00:49:21,820 --> 00:49:23,880 This is her at a farm we were at. 923 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,870 And everywhere we went, she would 924 00:49:25,870 --> 00:49:29,050 want me to tie the scarf around her waist. 925 00:49:29,050 --> 00:49:34,730 And as she got older, I had a dress up box at home. 926 00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:36,430 A dress up drawer. 927 00:49:36,430 --> 00:49:38,620 And she would wear skirts. 928 00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:40,070 And I would take pictures. 929 00:49:40,070 --> 00:49:43,000 And then I would take pictures of her from the waist up, 930 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:53,670 so that I could share them with her parents. 931 00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:56,630 As she grew, she became more insistent at home. 932 00:49:56,630 --> 00:50:01,690 And her parents would have her boy clothes and her girl 933 00:50:01,690 --> 00:50:02,190 clothes. 934 00:50:02,190 --> 00:50:04,710 And just let her wear her girl clothes at home. 935 00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:08,130 And they thought it was a phase. 936 00:50:08,130 --> 00:50:12,690 And she fought to be able to wear her girl clothes outside. 937 00:50:12,690 --> 00:50:17,050 And little by little they finally 938 00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:21,000 came to understand and embrace her as a girl. 939 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:26,310 And I brought her to church. 940 00:50:26,310 --> 00:50:29,096 The first time I brought her to church, 941 00:50:29,096 --> 00:50:30,720 and she was wearing a dress, and people 942 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,510 knew that I had a grandson. 943 00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:38,610 And I sent an email out to the families 944 00:50:38,610 --> 00:50:42,660 to say that my grandchild was coming. 945 00:50:42,660 --> 00:50:45,460 And my grandchild was going to be wearing a dress. 946 00:50:45,460 --> 00:50:49,020 And every time she came, she had a new name. 947 00:50:49,020 --> 00:50:53,280 I think that time her name was Sophia when she came to visit. 948 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,690 And so all the kids just knew her as Sophia. 949 00:50:55,690 --> 00:50:58,740 And the older people in church that didn't get my email 950 00:50:58,740 --> 00:51:02,220 thought I had a wonderful little granddaughter. 951 00:51:02,220 --> 00:51:08,160 And so it's been really special. 952 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:13,650 It has enhanced everyone's life to embrace her change, 953 00:51:13,650 --> 00:51:15,690 and embrace who she is. 954 00:51:15,690 --> 00:51:22,470 And accept and love her that way. 955 00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:27,522 Families then have to talk about it in public. 956 00:51:27,522 --> 00:51:28,980 They run into someone on the street 957 00:51:28,980 --> 00:51:32,490 and say well, how's your son? 958 00:51:32,490 --> 00:51:40,680 He's not a son anymore. 959 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,240 I think that it has also helped. 960 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:48,870 Supporting Dee in her journey has opened their world 961 00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:54,110 to other people that are different in other ways. 962 00:51:54,110 --> 00:51:58,430 And I think that that's been a really rich experience. 963 00:51:58,430 --> 00:52:03,640 And how it's enriched other people's lives. 964 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,420 Thanks Lisa. 965 00:52:07,420 --> 00:52:11,260 Melanie, can you tell us quickly what's 966 00:52:11,260 --> 00:52:12,925 in our whole lives that's helpful? 967 00:52:12,925 --> 00:52:14,070 Speaker 4: Sure. 968 00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:18,610 So of course the values, the OWL values 969 00:52:18,610 --> 00:52:21,760 are perfectly tuned to this. 970 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,080 Affirming everyone's self-worth, responsibility, sexual health, 971 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,920 which includes the physical changes that people go through. 972 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,810 And justice and inclusion. 973 00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:34,660 Those are things that people learn in our whole lives. 974 00:52:34,660 --> 00:52:39,230 And we have feedback from people who go through it, saying 975 00:52:39,230 --> 00:52:40,447 OWL saved my life. 976 00:52:40,447 --> 00:52:42,280 It was the only place where I could actually 977 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,210 explore my gender and be who I really am, 978 00:52:46,210 --> 00:52:47,580 and find supportive friends. 979 00:52:47,580 --> 00:52:50,410 So if you haven't offered OWL, or you 980 00:52:50,410 --> 00:52:54,150 don't make it a priority, I would encourage you to do that. 981 00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:59,560 For OWL K-1, we know that the gender language is outdated. 982 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,020 And so you can always call me if you 983 00:53:02,020 --> 00:53:04,570 have questions on how to adapt. 984 00:53:04,570 --> 00:53:10,460 You can change the names to gender neutral names. 985 00:53:10,460 --> 00:53:14,090 There's a baby story that people get flummoxed about. 986 00:53:14,090 --> 00:53:18,490 This is more about orientation, but it 987 00:53:18,490 --> 00:53:22,120 talks about male and female and sperm and eggs and things. 988 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,760 And we have written a newer version of that. 989 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,170 It's under the Facilities Resources tab 990 00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:30,820 on Our Whole Lives pages. 991 00:53:30,820 --> 00:53:33,250 We have had some pushback from parents saying 992 00:53:33,250 --> 00:53:35,050 but it still has a gender in it. 993 00:53:35,050 --> 00:53:38,890 Yes, it does because lives have gender. 994 00:53:38,890 --> 00:53:40,510 What we would urge you to consider 995 00:53:40,510 --> 00:53:43,160 is that it is not the gender story, 996 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,320 it is not the baby story, it is a baby story. 997 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,190 And so for your family, if you have gender non-conforming 998 00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:54,970 kids in your family then you can address that in the story. 999 00:53:54,970 --> 00:53:58,150 Maybe it's not a sister who's awaiting a brother, 1000 00:53:58,150 --> 00:54:01,150 maybe you can use other language that works specifically 1001 00:54:01,150 --> 00:54:02,980 for your family. 1002 00:54:02,980 --> 00:54:06,550 For OWL 4 through 6, that new edition is coming out. 1003 00:54:06,550 --> 00:54:08,650 Should be ready by June. 1004 00:54:08,650 --> 00:54:12,100 And we'll be having a webinar to introduce the new material. 1005 00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:18,850 We have updated the way we treat gender in that edition. 1006 00:54:18,850 --> 00:54:22,090 And so I'm very proud of that. 1007 00:54:22,090 --> 00:54:25,510 We use gender neutral names in all of the scenarios and all 1008 00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:26,800 the stories. 1009 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,650 And we encourage facilitators not 1010 00:54:29,650 --> 00:54:32,110 to assign gender automatically. 1011 00:54:32,110 --> 00:54:36,520 Just let it flow, and let the youth interpret it however 1012 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,590 they want to interpret it. 1013 00:54:38,590 --> 00:54:41,330 And then we have updated resources as well. 1014 00:54:41,330 --> 00:54:44,836 So that's what's new with those two levels of OWL. 1015 00:54:44,836 --> 00:54:46,470 Speaker 2: Thank you. 1016 00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:48,970 And I'm going to slide quickly through the resources that 1017 00:54:48,970 --> 00:54:51,030 are coming for you because I want 1018 00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:52,452 to allow a few minutes for Q & A. 1019 00:54:52,452 --> 00:54:54,410 Although there have been some things that we've 1020 00:54:54,410 --> 00:54:56,400 addressed along the way. 1021 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,890 From here, the book that Lisa was 1022 00:54:59,890 --> 00:55:03,040 referring to earlier with the wheel in it is Who Are You? 1023 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,610 And there's a picture of it. 1024 00:55:04,610 --> 00:55:06,640 And publication information is coming out 1025 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,560 on the resource list. 1026 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,340 Some other things, that the baby book, 1027 00:55:11,340 --> 00:55:13,450 to address some of what Melanie was talking about. 1028 00:55:13,450 --> 00:55:20,159 The different ways of making a baby are in that book. 1029 00:55:20,159 --> 00:55:21,450 And there's a number of others. 1030 00:55:21,450 --> 00:55:24,150 There's a whole list of children's resources, books 1031 00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:26,500 and things. 1032 00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:29,090 There are websites also coming out on your resource list. 1033 00:55:29,090 --> 00:55:32,130 Gender Spectrum, the Transforming Hearts Collective 1034 00:55:32,130 --> 00:55:35,020 is Alex's collective. 1035 00:55:35,020 --> 00:55:37,355 I do want to mention Flamingo Rampant. 1036 00:55:37,355 --> 00:55:39,010 Does somebody want to take that? 1037 00:55:39,010 --> 00:55:42,125 And tell us what Flamingo Rampant is please? 1038 00:55:42,125 --> 00:55:42,625 Maybe Alex. 1039 00:55:42,625 --> 00:55:44,791 Speaker 5: Flamingo Rampant is an absolutely amazing 1040 00:55:44,791 --> 00:55:47,320 organization run by Bear Bergmann who 1041 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,340 is a well-known author and activist on trans issues. 1042 00:55:51,340 --> 00:55:55,360 And it features books that are specifically 1043 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,110 targeted toward portraying a diversity of gender, 1044 00:55:59,110 --> 00:56:04,570 but also diversity of race, ability, age, family diversity, 1045 00:56:04,570 --> 00:56:06,904 and the most recent line of books 1046 00:56:06,904 --> 00:56:08,320 that they are working on right now 1047 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,560 is about diversity of spiritual celebrations, which 1048 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:12,360 is wonderful. 1049 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,910 They're perfect, absolutely perfect for UU congregations. 1050 00:56:15,910 --> 00:56:18,500 And all the books that Flamingo Rampant puts out 1051 00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:23,710 are written and illustrated by trans folks of a wide diversity 1052 00:56:23,710 --> 00:56:25,120 of other identities as well. 1053 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:26,950 So please check that out. 1054 00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:30,886 It's amazing. 1055 00:56:30,886 --> 00:56:32,720 Speaker 2: What I'd like to ask is-- 1056 00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:34,430 our time is really short-- 1057 00:56:34,430 --> 00:56:38,840 if you have a question that has not been addressed or answered, 1058 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:46,010 would you please type it in the box? 1059 00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:46,620 Thank you. 1060 00:56:46,620 --> 00:56:47,120 All of you. 1061 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,270 You've have done a fabulous job of helping everybody just 1062 00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:55,970 begin to understand the whole issue, 1063 00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:57,660 and how to make congregations more 1064 00:56:57,660 --> 00:57:00,500 welcoming spaces for everyone. 1065 00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:04,050 Speaker 5: Gayle, can I offer a sort of companion story 1066 00:57:04,050 --> 00:57:05,790 to the one that Lisa shared? 1067 00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:06,660 Speaker 2: Yes. 1068 00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:09,720 Speaker 5: I would just love to very quickly share 1069 00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:13,490 the story of my childhood in a UU congregation, 1070 00:57:13,490 --> 00:57:16,920 just so that people have sort of a sense of the variety that 1071 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:18,690 can exist there. 1072 00:57:18,690 --> 00:57:21,480 Because you might look at me and think that my childhood 1073 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,710 story would sort of match in a flipped 1074 00:57:25,710 --> 00:57:28,850 mirror reverse of the story that Lisa shared 1075 00:57:28,850 --> 00:57:30,750 about her beautiful grandchild. 1076 00:57:30,750 --> 00:57:33,480 But in fact as a child in a UU congregation, 1077 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,070 I was a little princess. 1078 00:57:35,070 --> 00:57:39,760 I was assigned female at birth, and loved everything princessy. 1079 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,070 Had so many dresses. 1080 00:57:41,070 --> 00:57:42,540 I was the Little Mermaid. 1081 00:57:42,540 --> 00:57:44,400 It came out while I was a kid. 1082 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,400 And I would wander the basement of my church, 1083 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,820 singing the songs from The Little Mermaid to such a degree 1084 00:57:50,820 --> 00:57:52,410 that it actually inspired the music 1085 00:57:52,410 --> 00:57:55,560 director to start a children's choir at my church. 1086 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,600 Yes, it was fantastic. 1087 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,600 So no one who looked at me thought 1088 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,620 that I was gender creative, even though my femininity was so 1089 00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:08,460 off the chart, that it was more feminine than your average girl 1090 00:58:08,460 --> 00:58:10,050 child. 1091 00:58:10,050 --> 00:58:14,670 So when I was able to put language to it much older, 1092 00:58:14,670 --> 00:58:18,390 and say look, I'm not a boy or girl, I'm not a man or a woman, 1093 00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:20,310 my mom was like, but of course you are. 1094 00:58:20,310 --> 00:58:21,522 The pig tails! 1095 00:58:21,522 --> 00:58:24,890 The dresses! 1096 00:58:24,890 --> 00:58:28,290 And I said, but mom, what if I was a boy in a dress? 1097 00:58:28,290 --> 00:58:30,900 I was an effeminate boy. 1098 00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:34,090 And I just didn't have the language for that, slash, 1099 00:58:34,090 --> 00:58:35,207 I'm gender fluid. 1100 00:58:35,207 --> 00:58:36,540 It's more complicated than that. 1101 00:58:36,540 --> 00:58:39,090 That's just the closest words that I can find. 1102 00:58:39,090 --> 00:58:43,170 But just so if people have a sense that it's not just 1103 00:58:43,170 --> 00:58:49,020 the peggable child who knows exactly who they are at age 3-- 1104 00:58:49,020 --> 00:58:51,510 although there's a lot of children out there who do know 1105 00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:53,280 exactly who they are at age 3-- 1106 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,550 there's also so many folks out there like me who are just-- 1107 00:58:56,550 --> 00:58:59,910 gender is fun, it's playful, and need 1108 00:58:59,910 --> 00:59:04,170 to be able to be given the space to fully explore that, 1109 00:59:04,170 --> 00:59:06,670 and live that out in the ways that feel authentic. 1110 00:59:06,670 --> 00:59:08,550 So, thanks. 1111 00:59:08,550 --> 00:59:09,600 Speaker 2: I love it. 1112 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,760 The pig tails. 1113 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,070 I'm going to invite Melissa to just quickly-- 1114 00:59:14,070 --> 00:59:16,290 because we really need to end this-- 1115 00:59:16,290 --> 00:59:18,145 talk about just very quick responses 1116 00:59:18,145 --> 00:59:19,770 to some of the questions that have been 1117 00:59:19,770 --> 00:59:21,467 flowing in to the question box. 1118 00:59:21,467 --> 00:59:23,300 And then we're going to have closing reading 1119 00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:25,260 and send you on your way. 1120 00:59:25,260 --> 00:59:27,185 So go ahead Melissa. 1121 00:59:27,185 --> 00:59:29,972 Speaker 6: I just typed this in so 1122 00:59:29,972 --> 00:59:31,180 that everyone can see it too. 1123 00:59:31,180 --> 00:59:32,700 But it was a really good question 1124 00:59:32,700 --> 00:59:34,960 of how do you start this conversation without putting 1125 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:35,710 a kid on the spot? 1126 00:59:35,710 --> 00:59:36,626 And be like, hey look. 1127 00:59:36,626 --> 00:59:37,890 We have a gender creative kid. 1128 00:59:37,890 --> 00:59:39,390 Let's talk about it. 1129 00:59:39,390 --> 00:59:41,860 Start the conversation now on all levels 1130 00:59:41,860 --> 00:59:45,090 so these books become part of the story to tell in RE, 1131 00:59:45,090 --> 00:59:47,070 becomes part of the story you tell in worship. 1132 00:59:47,070 --> 00:59:49,890 Start hosting conversations with parents and wider community 1133 00:59:49,890 --> 00:59:50,910 about gender because-- 1134 00:59:50,910 --> 00:59:54,862 [CELL PHONE RINGING] 1135 00:59:54,862 --> 00:59:58,400 -- and parents, even going go into gender creative 1136 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,770 and transgender kids, every time I've created space 1137 01:00:00,770 --> 01:00:03,920 for our parents to get together and talk about navigating 1138 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:08,510 gender with their children, conversations just won't stop. 1139 01:00:08,510 --> 01:00:10,180 So just started having the conversation 1140 01:00:10,180 --> 01:00:14,240 broadly, and that makes space for conversations about trans 1141 01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,800 and gender creative children to come up without saying, 1142 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,968 OK, we have this kid that we need to talk about. 1143 01:00:19,968 --> 01:00:22,740 Speaker 2: Thank you. 1144 01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:26,190 And I'm actually going to stay with you to do the closing 1145 01:00:26,190 --> 01:00:28,510 reading if you would. 1146 01:00:28,510 --> 01:00:32,570 And then we'll have Kareem tell us about the next webinar. 1147 01:00:32,570 --> 01:00:33,802 Go ahead. 1148 01:00:33,802 --> 01:00:36,516 Speaker 6: Genderfluid by The Emerald Outcast. 1149 01:00:36,516 --> 01:00:40,290 She laughed when I first told her, only nine years old, 1150 01:00:40,290 --> 01:00:41,820 my little sister. 1151 01:00:41,820 --> 01:00:44,040 Sometimes I feel more like men. 1152 01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,910 Well, that makes me a frog then. 1153 01:00:46,910 --> 01:00:49,680 But really I'm not only a girl. 1154 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,320 That's when she almost began to hurl. 1155 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,840 Her face scrunched up, she was crying, no longer 1156 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:56,670 thinking I was lying. 1157 01:00:56,670 --> 01:00:59,370 Don't worry it sometimes last only a day. 1158 01:00:59,370 --> 01:01:02,320 She sniffed, will this go away? 1159 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,750 Always been here, nothing new. 1160 01:01:04,750 --> 01:01:07,560 Tell mommy and daddy, they can help you. 1161 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,380 I tried to explain how I felt. Took her face 1162 01:01:10,380 --> 01:01:14,160 in my hand and knelt. Sweetie, remember our secret game? 1163 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,240 It's still me. 1164 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,160 I'll always be the same. 1165 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,590 She nodded and finally eased. 1166 01:01:19,590 --> 01:01:22,920 I told her her pronouns and was quite pleased. 1167 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,620 When Daddy asked, what's my big girl up to? 1168 01:01:25,620 --> 01:01:28,260 She replied he's really busy. 1169 01:01:28,260 --> 01:01:32,170 Lots to do. 1170 01:01:32,170 --> 01:01:35,630 So before I pass this on to Kareem about the next webinar, 1171 01:01:35,630 --> 01:01:39,450 I want to say thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you 1172 01:01:39,450 --> 01:01:40,620 as presenters. 1173 01:01:40,620 --> 01:01:45,290 And we're going to do this again tomorrow night at 9 o'clock. 1174 01:01:45,290 --> 01:01:47,250 And thank you to all who were here as well 1175 01:01:47,250 --> 01:01:51,250 and were part of this webinar as attendees as well. 1176 01:01:51,250 --> 01:01:54,576 So I'm going to turn it over to you Kareem. 1177 01:01:54,576 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 7: Great. 1178 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,330 Thank you, thank you all for a wonderful webinar. 1179 01:01:58,330 --> 01:02:00,140 I think it was very informative. 1180 01:02:00,140 --> 01:02:03,610 And people had questions a or if you had experiences, 1181 01:02:03,610 --> 01:02:05,540 it was very relatable as well. 1182 01:02:05,540 --> 01:02:07,540 So thank you guys again, for taking out the time 1183 01:02:07,540 --> 01:02:09,400 to explain these things. 1184 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,540 So for our upcoming webinar in March, 1185 01:02:11,540 --> 01:02:13,810 we have Pat Kahn and Jan Gartner. 1186 01:02:13,810 --> 01:02:16,620 And it's titled Who You Gonna Call? 1187 01:02:16,620 --> 01:02:19,750 It's not a reference to the Ghostbusters. 1188 01:02:19,750 --> 01:02:21,950 What they'll be talking about is their new roles 1189 01:02:21,950 --> 01:02:23,500 and their professions, and how they 1190 01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:31,101 support religious professionals all across the UUA. 1191 01:02:31,101 --> 01:02:32,850 Speaker 2: This webinar has been recorded. 1192 01:02:32,850 --> 01:02:36,450 It will be at the website that you see here. 1193 01:02:36,450 --> 01:02:40,890 And I think at this point we're going to stop the recording 1194 01:02:40,890 --> 01:02:44,040 and say thanks to everyone. 1195 01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:50,900